Lilbro.net

I believe that a large portion of the problem in today's churches, is they have no concept of the seriousness of sin. Paul says "FLEE youthful lusts" which not only implies that one shouldn't stay around to reason and try to win the debate with temptation and sin (like Eve attempted, and she was unfallen too) but it also is a vivid example of the absolute seriousness of sin! Similarly, when Jesus speaks in the sermon on the mount about cutting of one's hand, or gouging out one's eye, it doesn't speak to a literal mutilation, but portrays very vividly the incredible seriousness of sin. A serious thing requires drastic measures. In churches today, people try to focus on what they like in God, what they are comfortable with, and in doing so, they lose sight of God's holiness and how sin must be punished. The infinite wrath of an infinitely holy God will pour out infinite punishment, and that is a dreadful thing. By not telling the truth, or by concealing a large part of it in the name of tolerance and not wishing to offend, Christians today are not really being loving, they are being hateful! If the bridge were out and you were driving down the road on a dark and stormy night and stopped and asked for directions and I said that the way he was going was fine, because I didn't want him to think me overbearing in trying to follow what I believed was the "correct" way (and way to life) then I've just condemned that person to speed over the embankment to their doom!

No, a Christian is not called to be offensive, an example is Paul when he addressed the Areopagus. He did not say "You fools! Making an altar to an unknown god! I can't believe how idiotically superstitious you are and how sinful! Don't you know that you aren't supposed to make idols? You are so sinful!

I listened to a testimony given by a former sodomite woman and her coming to Christianity. One thing that she said was that one ("tolerant") pastor had told her she could still live in sin, and yet have Jesus too. But from her own reading, she knew that was wrong. Another pastor (the one who was instrumental to her salvation) invited her to her house and didn't start condemning her, but led her to question her stance and invited her to study the Bible. These are two radically different methods. The first is, quite frankly, wrong, and leads to hell. A "partially converted" person, is not converted at all, one cannot serve two masters: sin and God, it is either one or the other. The second method was, I believe, correct and loving.

And here's where I want to bring out one final point. Oftentimes people (myself included) will condemn a person for drinking, living in sinful lives, etc. but quite frankly, why would you expect someone who is not redeemed, who is not converted, to live like one who is converted? We are not told to go out and condemn the world, but to do good to the world. That doesn't mean condoning what they do but, in a sense, it does mean tolerating them! I have a work partner who likes to drink at the bars. Instead of saying "drunkenness is sinful" I can befriend him, invite him over, talk, find common points, etc and make it clear that I don't become drunk. There is a difference between pointing the finger at him and saying "God says you shouldn't live this way" and pointing the finger at yourself and saying "God says I shouldn't live this way." And the Holy Spirit does the convicting, not me.
---
As we learned in Narnia....

It is wonderful to have you back here Logan, I truly have missed your post and hearing your words, I have always valued your wisdom and the many talks we have had about faith.

I can add nothing to this post except to say I agree with you completely.
---
Lead me Lord and I will follow

People taking out and only paying attention to the parts of the scripture they like is a huge problem. No one doing that can really grow spiritually and in most cases, like the one of people not warning others of the consequences of their sin(or even that there are any consequences), it is essentially sending people to Hell(unless someone else comes forward and tells them the truth, and they choose to believe it).

I like the picture of of cutting off your hand or gouging out your eye if they cause you to sin. Because if you think about it, you hands and eys never truly cause you to sin, but it does a great job of showing that we should "cut out" the areas of our life that are causing us to sin. If you've have problems with drinking, you should try to avoid places where you know you will have access to alcoholic beverages. I know people that say they want to quit drinking, but keep beer in the house. That's planning for failure, and basically accepting it as fact that you'll eventually give in and want another drink. More than that though, it's keeping the temptation in your face everytime they open the refrigerator.

And just as a comment on your last paragraph; You're right, it's not our place to judge people, but we do have to warn them and help them if we can, and most importantly show them to the one who CAN help.

One other thing I just thought of to mention:

People have twisted the idea of not worrying so much about the speck in others' eyes until you've removed the plank from yours. They tend to try to say that it means you should just leave the plank and the speck there and don't end up trying to remove either of them..
---
All the darkness in the world cannot extinguish the light of a single candle.

One other thing I just thought of to mention:

People have twisted the idea of not worrying so much about the speck in others' eyes until you've removed the plank from yours. They tend to try to say that it means you should just leave the plank and the speck there and don't end up trying to remove either of them..

Hmm, that is interesting. I hadn't really thought of it this way but I'm sure that idea creeps in because of a laxness toward others. There is a movement called the "free grace" movement which is actually "cheap grace." They say that anyone, as long as they claim the name of Jesus, is saved for eternity, whether that person immediately goes out and murders another, turns to Buddhism, Islam, etc. They are saved and saved for good. They may be so-called "carnal Christians" but by golly they are going to heaven!

I strongly oppose such an idea. In Jesus' parable of the sower and the soils we have the idea of someone who received the Word of God joyfully but then immediately dies away. He never did have any root. I do believe in the phrase "once saved, always saved" to be sure, but that must be joined with "truly saved" and then one only continues because God never loses any that are His, it is His preservation that causes a believer to persevere.

But back to the main point, if people are acting like that, it could (and probably does) come from the fact that if you don't tell unbelievers they need to repent and turn away from sin and come to Christ, if you tell them they can have their sin and Jesus too! Then Joe Christian in the pew realizes that he could do the exact same, and "love (of God) covers a multitude of sins!" If they sin, they will have grace sufficient to cover it. They are being consistently tolerant of the sins of others, and their own sins. That is a very good point on the ramifications of such a practice Oogy.

---
As we learned in Narnia....

Cheap grace, I have not heard that and what a horrid thought.

Have your sin and Jesus too, I can not imagine that sort of thing going on, this discussion is really giving me a lot to think about. My world must be to narrow these days --- I have not heard of this but I am finding your talks very enlightening.
---
Lead me Lord and I will follow

I'm not sure I've ever heard it called the "free grace" movement, but I have seen it. I agree that it is bogus. They seem to forget that the word "repent" doesn't just mean to walk down the aisle and shed a few tears. It means to turn away from your sin.

You're right, once saved is always saved, but you have to have been really saved in the first place. Walking through the motions, going down the aisle, saying a memorized prayer, shedding a couple tears, having your name on a list of church members, and being baptised doesn't make you a Christian. Those are all external things, and it's an internal thing that many people completely miss.

Sadly, like you said, there are many people that haven't been taught the difference, and then they go and show more people "how simple it is" and it spreads like wildfire. The Bible says, there will be two in the field, one will be taken and the other left. I think there will be far too many cases where the one that was left will be left wondering why he wasn't taken.


Keep me in your prayers. I'm not struggling too much myself(though there are always the little things that get you). More though is the fact that I seem to keep coming in contact with people who adamantly disagree with the one Truth. Most recently, someone was trying to convince one of my friends that God doesn't exist. There's no real danger of him succeeding(though it is on a place on the web where other people could see it), but it's still sad/frustrating. So, I'm kind of talking to this person. I think it may just be one of those times when they'll continue arguing no matter what I say and there will come a point when I just have to stop responding to him. That part will probably be hard for me lol, I have to remember it's not my job to convince him, I just have to let him know he is certainly wrong.

Also, I'd like you to keep one of my friends(the one I talked about in the last paragraph) in prayer. I'm not sure if she would want me to tell you why or not. I don't think she'd mind, but since I haven't asked her, just keep her in prayer.

Anyway, I'm still busy with family. One of my sisters went home, but the other one and her husband are still here, plus my dad is home because it's a holiday, so I haven't really had much time on here. I just got on and sent a couple emails and posted here. I also made a post in my blog, and am planning to make another sometime today.
---
All the darkness in the world cannot extinguish the light of a single candle.

I will keep you in my prayers Oogy, but then I do anyway. I will remember your friend as well.

Sounds like a good time with your family visiting and all. I bet your parents are enjoying having the "kids" home.
---
Lead me Lord and I will follow

Oogy, LES was right, I would like to get to know you better :)

I very much agree with your post, I've been distraught when I see "revival" meetings where a whole bunch of little kids are sitting watching a clown make balloons, then at the end he says "Jesus loves you" and stands and asks who wants to come down the aisle. Most who come down just do it because everyone else is and they honestly have no idea what is going on, as they stand there grinning and poking each other. Then someone stands up and says "ladies and gentlemen, I'd like you to meet your new brothers and sisters, 35 children were saved tonight....."

No, it is not for any of us to give that kind of assurance, in fact it's one of the most horrible things one can do. I'm currently reading a book that was written during the 1800s by William Weeks about the revivals that were going on in his time and the "new measures" that were being us by Finney and others, basically emotional manipulation to get a response from the crowd, sometimes quite drastic as "tonight is your only chance, if you don't stand up now then you will surely go to hell." Oh yes, they got responses, but for example, out of a crowd of 200 that were proclaimed by the minister to be "saved" during this one night, only 4 remained in the church by the end of a few months.

The idea of many in this "free grace" movement is that they are offering grace free of charge. They strongly oppose those who hold to the "lordship salvation", i.e. that one must accept Jesus as Lord and not merely Saviour (in fact, I don't think one can accept one without the other). Again, they claim that someone can accept Christ as their "fire insurance" and be saved from hell, yet not accept him as Lord or even try to live as pleasing Christ, as long as they "said the words" then they are saved.

There was another minister who used to always say "why polish the brass on a sinking ship?" His idea was that if the world is coming to an end soon, we need to go out and make as many "converts" as possible and then move on to the next one. I deplore this, because it leaves babes in Christ out in the cold and dark, all alone without a guide. The first lion that comes by will gobble them up. The first wolf that happens upon these lambs (without a shepherd) will devour them. Our mandate is to preach the gospel and make disciples, not just make converts and then abandon them. Paul spent most of his time strengthening existing churches, not just starting new ones. The 12 apostles spent most of their time strengthening the mother church in Jerusalem. Anyway, I have to go to bed. I'll pray for these situations Oogy.
---
As we learned in Narnia....

Logan you know your Aunt Lynn would not steer you wrong, I have thought ( and told you for awhile ) that you would like Oogy.

I was so thrilled when he first posted here and it has been delightful getting to know him.
---
Lead me Lord and I will follow

Lol, she told me that too(but the other way around, of course). She was right again! :P You should send me an email sometime so we can talk. Or I guess we can just talk on here lol. mycagemail@gmail.com is my email address if you want to send one sometime.


I made a post a while back that goes along with what you said about strengthening the church body that is already there. Here's what it basically said:

If you found one person each year willing to devote their lives to God and devoted that year to teaching them and training them then set them out to do the same thing, it would be better than saving 100 people a year and not training them at all. By the end of 10 years, if you just look at numbers, it may not seem like you've done a lot, because you would have only trained 10 people. However, through that ministry over 1,000 people would have come to know the Lord and would have a strong relationship with Him and be prepared to go out and spread the gospel. In only 10 years, your ministry would have passed the person who is out there converting 100 people a year in both quality and quantity(not saying it's a race, though sometimes people act like it).

If you want to read the longer version, it's probably somewhere in the thread I started about sermon illustrations(which is probably overdue for an update).



Anyway, I made another blog post and fixed a different one(the music one for some reason was set not to allow comments). Speaking of which, thanks for the comment on one of my other posts, I just posted a response to it.

I put up a little tent in our front yard yesterday to see if we still have all the pieces. Luckily we do, so that's the one I'm planning to use next week(Collide Festival is only a week away!). It rained today, so I got to see if it is rainproof, and it seems to be.
---
All the darkness in the world cannot extinguish the light of a single candle.